MKB Forum

So the thinking is that I probably have an oxygen sensor that's $hit the bed and gone to the big scrap yard in the sky. Hence a richer mix of fuel, meaning les mpg and less power.....

So I need to fix it, and for that I'm gunna have to fall back on my friends for what the MKB does best..... A little help!

Jamieg285 and F-Body, you're in the firing line here... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/tongue.gif)

Jamie, I understand that you live not far from F-Body, If you are still coming over to the barn on Saturday (and it's ok with Martin) would it be ok if you could grab his diagnostic code reader and bring it over with you....

Also, I think someone said that they have a sensor removal socket.... something like 7/8" with a big cutout on one side for the cable me thinks....

I'm assuming I can pick-up a replacement from JWR for not to much as you can pick up BOSCH replacements in the states for around $25?!? (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/confused.gif)

If anyone has any more advise, now's the time....(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)

It's looking like I will be able to get to the barn in the afternoon.  I'll get in contact with Martyn see if I can borrow the doobry.

I think it was PhilO that had the socket, but I might be wrong.

Give me a shout before you do . . .

If you go could you pick up a rad cap for me?  Lev-R-Vent one for a stock '79 camaro rad?

(can post current model number tonight if required)

I need a Radiator over-flow tank cap for a '83 Camaro. (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)

How bad mpg are we talking here?

15mpg seems to ring a bell.....  (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif)

sorry, i dont have the socket - thirdgens can be done with a crescent wrench, so i never botherd buying one...

Yep.... That's the not so magic number... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/down.gif)

Jamie has the doobry , just make sure you don't let the batteries go flat because it wipes the memory in the Palm and it has to be reloaded.

This any good to you

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OBD2-PWM-VPW-ISO-KWP-for-For d-GMC-Buick-Chevrolet_W0QQitemZ8062782717QQcategor yZ30921QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I know it will probably have ended by the time you see it, but it like he will have more.

Thanks for the link Jamie... Unfortunatly I was to ill to follow it up at the time, but i'll be keeping an eye on the seller...(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)

F-Body

What make, model, and communication protocol is your OBD plugin...?

I'm trying to make sure I get the right type as 1995 is a dodgy year for knowing what protocol was used....

Seeing as I know yours didn't work, I can rule out the protocol.....(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/smirk.gif)

It's an OBD2 protocol from here :

http://www.obd2.com

Not wanting to be a pain, but succeeding i'm sure, do you know if it's VPW, PWM, ISO, or CAN?

Has it got a model number on it.....

Don't want to put you out but I want to make sure I get the right thing....

If it's VPW OBD2 then I think my car is one of the funny ones where they fitted an OBD2 connector, but it has an OBD1 PCM....(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/confused.gif)

I LIKE MAN SAUSAGE!!! (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)

:ROFLS: (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/wink.gif)

That's the last time I use the forum at your house FUBAR.... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/down.gif)

(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif)

N00B..... If you're going to hijack my login you could at least do it right.... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/lol.gif)

Yup (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/sad.gif)

Shamed.

Sooo Ryan and Titsy both like Man Sausage (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/chiny.gif)



(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/smirk.gif)

(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/offtopic.gif)

Err No because I just bought the software which runs on a Palm.

The order comfirmation reads : OBDII meter for Palm model G ( GM , Toyota and Isuzu ).

Total cost was $130 which = £96.23 on 04/03/03.

Trust you to be " difficult " (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/tongue.gif)

(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/dontknow.gif)

any update on this?

i dunno if it relates to all GM vehicels and code readers, but there is four different tech 2's..

europe
north america
australia and worldwide..

Goeff Caverhill at astoria has the woldwide one (about 2.2 grand IIRC) so if you get stuck, he is an option..

i also seem to recall that although the generic readers can pull physical codes from all OBDII cars, i think you need the specific reader for that range of cars to actualy get hte full data..

for example, when i had ther camaro scanned, because it was a north america tec2, the code was *whatever* - EGR solenoid failure  any other code reader would simply have given "fault code *whatever* found "

OK will call him tomorrow and ask seeing as i just fixed his speakers and that he used to work for my dad

Dad used astoria when he had a fault code with the tahoe, must say the service was excelent..

The best option is to get a PC based plug-in.... That way it doesn't rely on the scanner to know what manufacturer specific codes mean, it can all be interpreted selecting the specific vehicle when loading the software which uses a library of codes that identify with the vehicle. You can get OBD2 plug-ins that work with all four communication protocols (PWM, VPW, ISO, and CAN) and convert data from whichever of these protocols the vehicle uses to serial data which the software interprets....

Of cause none of this helps me, because my car isn't OBD2 compliant.....
(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/down.gif)

its also available for OBD1 (winALDL) and also for the odd interim OBDII (sort of but not quite OBDII)  that GM had from 92 to 96

win ALDL is available as a free download, but its 82 - 92, there is other programes out there though..


you are OBDII (GM went over to it in 92 across the range) but its the oddball OBDII system that isn't quite the standardised OBDII that everyone uses..

Exactly the point.... It's not OBDII!!! It's GM's adaptation on OBD1 with an OBDII connector thrown in to confuse things.... It is not compliant with the OBDII standard.....

Thanks for the comments mate, but having done ALOT of reading over the weekend I finally where i'm going with this....(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/grin.gif)

gotta love crossover years, eh?

also explains why the traction isn't causing the ECU to regester the misfire as a later 'true' OBDII car would...

when we were sorting out the LPG on dads tahe, i spent many hours staring at misfire logs, it makes your eyes spin (especialy when there is 6000+ events logged!!!! )

i am totaly sold on computers as a means of runnig a vehicle, but jeeeeeez, sometimes they can be a pain in the butt!

hope you get it sorted mate..

Not really!

(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/down.gif)

(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/roll.gif)

OK..... Now I have something to work with.....The SES light popped on on my way back from Jamie & Deb's gaff, so I pulled over as soon as I could an stuffed in the cable to make sure I snagged it.....

It was an Exhaust Gas Recirculation code..... So now I have a diagnostics chart to work through to fault find the system....

So thats why you went off up that slip road then?

Yep..... I didn't want to give it the chance to clear itself like it did before......(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/cool.gif)

Sounds like the ERG valve may be on the way out ?
Not sure if you can take yours apart and clean it ??

Just found out where my ERG Valve is.....(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif)
[img]http://www.alldatadiy.com/alldata/AFI~V6800858~C21247~R0~OB0~P2R0H~N/0/41746505/42420010/42420011/42420012/34853741/34857029/34857699/34872079/34858162/107066892/41860062\" border=\"0\"  alt=\"\" width=150>

Yikes, right at the back? (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif)

How's 'Lex with a spanner? D'ya think he could crawl up under the dash?(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/smirk.gif)

Yup thats where i thought it was, not that bad to get to if you have the right tools

You mean like an engine crane..... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/smirk.gif)

and you are an ambidextrous vertically challenged extortionist (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/lol.gif)

Nah i have ratchet spanners with a positionable end

Ok, I had a looky see how easy it is to get to the EGR Valve last night, and to be fair, there is quite a bit of room around it to work..... However, it does involve laying across the engine bay like you're performing some sort of lewd act.... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif)

The problem is, while you can get hold of it, and most likely get tools on it, you can't see what you're doing.... I have a plan though, and as usual it's hi-tech and OTT....
(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/smirk.gif)

Using one of the " Rovers " that went missing on Mars ?

[img]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/images/rover1_detail_250.jpg\" border=\"0\"  alt=\"\" width=150>

Is it more High-tech than me taking Photos of the Back of the Dizzy on Deano's Car with my mobile to get it positioned right when we were rebuilding his engine?...

(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif)



You're alot closer than the F-Body was FUBAR..... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/cool.gif)

But real-time video is so much better than stills when you're trying to undo bolts.....(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)

do all sorts of things (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif)

Worked for us at the weekend too.  Chris took a pick of the cable linkages on the old carb before we removed it, and we used the pic when putting the new one back  (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)

(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)    (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/dance.gif)  (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)

A mirror on a stick? (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/lol.gif)

Filled up last night..... 21MPG.... Best Ever (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)

But still shocking! (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/down.gif)

Re-did a 0-60 test though, and with the traction I shaved it down from 6.70s to 6.44s..... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/rock.gif)

You don't think that had something to do with the mpg (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/slap.gif)

Hee-Hee - Drive it like you stole it   Tisy does (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/lol.gif)

I'd be shocked if 100 metres of WOT driving over a 200mile MPG measurement made that much difference.... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/smirk.gif)

My 3.4 V6 averaged 22mpg. (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/confused.gif)

Probally right !

Having competed twice in the round Britain Fuel economy race the easiest way to get extra mpg is anticipation (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/wink.gif)

Read the road ahead and ease off the throttle as soon as you can see you are going to have to slow down or stop.

Example : When coming up to a roundabout if there are cars already stopped at the roundabout , off the throttle becuase it's more than likely you'll have to stop too.
If the lights have just changed to red - same again.

The best part is you don't even have to drive slowly just anticipate (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)

Edit : Current average 27.08mpg.

Have another piece of this puzzle.....

While giving the engine bay a once over this evening I decided to have a quick gander at the HT's that plug ends... The previous owner said they's been changed so i figured i'd give it a look and if they looked clean i'd believe him..... Well sure enough they looked new enough, but while pushing the lead I'd pulled off back on something didn't feel right....

Sure enough the plug I was cheacking wasn't even finger tight.... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif) (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/wall.gif)

Guess they guys motto was "If thereis a difficult job to be done, then make a balls of it..."

(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/sad.gif) Now i'm going to have to spend probably all of Saturday checking all the plugs... I's an arse of a job, but needs to be done right....

That would be down on performance then

Yup, i'm gradually cutting down that extra second.....

OK.... Spent 6 hours working on the 'maro today, and all I can say is that GM suck when it comes to designing cars for maintainence!!!!(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/down.gif)

Out of the 8 plugs I have so far only been able to get a ratchet onto 6.... Out of those six, 3 fer finger tight and showed signs of blow-by on the threads, and 1 was so loose you could rock it side to side.... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif) (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif) (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif)

I can't physically get a tool onto the remaining plugs without (for the rear drivers side) getting the front end of the car up on stands, which I couldn't do safely with the stands I had 'cause they were to tall, and (for the front passenger side) removing the alternator.....(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/down.gif)

The bad news is that while the plugs looked reasonable, they were not the platinum plugs that they are supposed to be so that they only have to be changed every 50k miles..... So I'm probably going to have to do the whole job over.....

At lease I have a bit more confidence that it's not going to die on me again, and it sounded noticeably different when I ran it and reved it up... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)

Way to go matey, if your gonna get new plugs i would go for the iridium ones over the platinum

Did you try and get a flexable extension to tighten the 2 you couldnt get at? If you bring it over next weeknd you can try the ones i have

Had a UJ, but ther is little to no room to work, and for the two I couldn't get onto there aare rigid pipes in the way and the downpipe....

well your welcome to try my wobble drive extensions mate

Well the camaro Z28 uses the same plug as chris's mustang if you go for the NGK iridium ones. They run about $7 each and shouldnt be to expensive to ship from the USA. You can get them at any parts store so you could ask carl

What you need is one of these :

(http://www.slponline.com/img/part_img/30102-1-tn.jpg)

$25 from SLP (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/wink.gif)

(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/notworking.gif)

Pictures fine for me ?

Blowing out of the plug threads has got to be costing a few mpg, makes you wonder what sort of maintenance program the car had ?

I'd blame the bloke who bought it (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif)

I'm innocent!!!(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/sad.gif)

Not all Camaro's have a Full service every 1500 miles (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif)



I sure it's guilty until proven innocent (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/lol.gif)

I drove 1500 miles and had to have the transmission rebuilt.... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/sad.gif)

Did you check the transmission oil level again when you got home ?

Yeah, looked about the same..... Will pick up a bottle tomorrow on my way home in the Focus and top it up..... Just have to keep an eye on it and see how it goes....

If it looses a lot then I'll go back to wheels in motion and get them to take a look... Other than that, I have to change the fluid after 1000 miles anyway, so I'll put on a cork gasket and have a good clean-up then....

As I said today even a slight leak from the pan gasket will cover the bottom of the oil pan becuase the normal fill level is above the gasket joint.
Just for info the pan bolts are only tighten up to 8ft lb which is about finger tight (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/dontknow.gif)
The GM Filter & gasket set part No.24200796 is £47.54 but about £25 from USless Automotive.
You won't enjoy changing the filter washer, it makes spark plug look like a doddle (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif)
Oh and the best gasket sealer I've used on the pan is Hermite Silicone Gold.

I don't know if the 4L60E (either version!(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/smirk.gif)) is the same as the 700R4 but if there's a little indentation in the gasket on one side of the Pan this matches up to a very small hole on mine very close to the gasket line.  Be very very careful with the sealant stuff not to block this hole up because (on the 700R4 anyway) this is an oil vent hole for the overdrive gear.  If its significantly blocked it will cause the gearbox to try and select 2nd & 4th at the same time and, according to the guy at GM Automatics when I had my box rebuilt it takes about 30 miles to destroy the entire box, even the case.

No it has a cut away for the hole, which means you don't have to worry about lining up the hole, but the gasket is only half it's width around the cut out (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/sad.gif)

Yeah thats what I was trying to describe... I think...

Well at least one of my cars is giving good MPG.... Just got back from taking my Mum, Sister and Bro-in-law to Gatwick in my 1.6 Focus and saw 45MPG... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)

Phah !

Even if you drive the Panda like you stole it and it's quicker than the 1.4 petrol version it still refuses to drop below 55mpg.

Got in it the other day after Management had been to Watford , Milton Keynes and god knows where else and it was showing 72.1 mpg (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif)
Seems to average about 63mpg, Panda diesel for the win (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)

Just thgink you could run it on chip oil for almost free

hmmm.... wonder if you could get a contract with KK for used donut oil...


i could just see martyn driving around with a donut smell following the panda around!

After yesterday's run down to Bluewater and back via Enfield I clocked an all time high of 22.9mpg...(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/up.gif)

And that was with mixed driving and the aircon (unknowingly) on all the way to Bluewater...(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/rolleyes.gif)

yah... aircon..

turns out the mustang fan can periodicly run for up to 10 mins depending on aircon conditions such as temp and humidity, to dry the condenser and prevent bacterior build up and smell, there is no switch as such, its turned on and off by the ECU..



(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/rolleyes.gif)

so we guessed right!!

22MPG wasn't too bad then........was it?(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/dontknow.gif)

Well my previous best was 21mpg, but i'm playing with tyre pressures at the moment...(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/wink.gif)

Time to get a LS1 I reckon. (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/tongue.gif)

24MPG short journeys, mostly ay WOT and often with the air con on (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/beavisnbutthead.gif)

OK, converted to UK gallons, here's what I should get:

20.4 MPG (city)
30.0 MPG (highway)
24.0 MPG (combined)

Looks like I have a little way to go...(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/confused.gif)

27mpg is pretty easy, 33mpg if your really try (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/wink.gif)

Mind you with Titsy's (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/drive.gif) I think 25mpg would be reasonable (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/wink.gif)

OK. Filled mine up yesterday.

Spent £44. Petrol is currently 85.9 here.
Did 440Km so about 273.40 miles

44 / 0.895 = 51.22 litres

51.22 ltr = 13.53 US gallons = 11.26 UK Gallons

So average mpg is 20.21 US or 24.39 UK

This was combined as last filled us before last Sunday when we took the maro to mk

(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif) That's not so good, what should you be getting?

No idea - I'll check

City is supposed to be 19
Highway is supposed to be 29

That can't be right.... Unless I picked up the V6 figures above and not the V8, or you did it the other way around... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/dontknow.gif)

Here we go:

'96 V6 Auto

MPG (city) 19 US,  22.8 UK
MPG (highway) 29 US,  34.8 UK
MPG (combined) 22 US,  26.4 UK


'95 V8 Auto

MPG (city) 17 US,  20.4 UK
MPG (highway) 25 US,  30.0 UK
MPG (combined) 20  US,  24.0 UK

well filled up the cobra this morning so just worked my mpg out...

did 286 miles on 52 litres of fuel (mixed driving - to/from work and long distance crusing)

so 52 litres = 11.44 UKGallons or 13.74 US Gallons

so therefore i think i getting 20.81 US MPG or 25 UK MPG....which i dont hink is too bad....

(http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/chiny.gif)

Well you won't want to be getting new injectors matey as they are $146.61 each for genuine GM units (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/shame.gif)

been trying BP ultimate, currently on 346km and still showing 1/2 tank, so dispite over an hour of stationary traffic on the M6 today, this tanks gonna be a goodun...

i've figured out that my olds gets rougly the same mpg as andys STS...

git bags.... (http://mkb-cc.yanksrule.co.uk//Forum/smileys/down.gif)